VAT on everything? They must be joking

There once was a betting tax but avoidance was rife. Unlicenced bookmakers were readily available to take the bets. As it is today, most bookies use the internet and are based in Gibralta or some such place. Tell the bookies: If you don't pay tax on all your profits, then you are committing an offence if you take a bet from a UK domiciled gambler. This is the case in the USA, we must adopt the same stance.

But a major simplifying is essential. Most of Europe have VAT on everything, including children's clothing and even food in some countries. Your view Lorna, is rather blinkered and a bit nimby. Change and simplification is needed desperately

what planet is Sir James Mirrlees of Cambridge University located

Obviously planet 'Cambridge'

But then it was always the case that our leaders and their advisor's (sic) should get out more. (The Pol Pot scheme)

As for Mr Greenland, yes other countries do have VAT on everything, but not at the full rate for essentials.

Lorna's view is quite correct. Its how we do things in the UK, so why do we even think about what other country's do.

How about we start with VAT on airline tickets rather than essentials such as food?

This would devalue savings of the poorest such as unemployed people below retirement age, but considered too old or experienced by employers.

Interestingly Observer is right and other EU countries often reduce VAT for specific industries they wish to assist or promote, especially tourism where the VAT on hotels is often under 10%.

I think that there is some merit in a property tax at a flat rate on the price you paid for your home. That way pensioners who have been living in their home for many years would pay little tax. It would also help Local Authorities who have good schools as when folk move to that area then they pay full whack for the right to send their kids to a good school. It needs a bit of small print so that the rich don't dodge it..... a buy out clause for the local council......if you only paid a single pound then that would be the compensation for this tax avaoidance as they take your house!!.

What was that about any country only being 3 square meals from revolution. What a tosser this person is. Then we can export the little children to Tasmania when they are caught stealing loafs of bread to survive! For f*cks sake.

Many consumers may not know that part of the VAT collected goes to Brussels. In many EU States VAT is widely avoided and/or evaded. At a VAT Fraud conference which I attended in Brussels some years back, the Italian delegate announced, 'Of the VAT the Mafia gets 95% the government collects the rest.' In France its is only paid by the few- and, of course any non- French nationals who happen to be in France.

VAT loses millions , if not billions in fraud, e.g MTIC fraud- far more stolen than officially admitted.

As for taxing everything- well if the Treasury could only think of a way to tax breathing they'd be laughing. Very hard to avoid that- unless you were dying to of course!

VAT on processed food but not raw food might improve our eating habits

VAT

Extend it at a very low rate to the areas where it is not charged.

Council Tax

Bring back the Poll Tax, with caps, Charge for no more than 4 People in any

household and exempt under 18 year olds in education , Students in full time education up to 23 and old people on benefits.

Stamp Duty,

Make it progressive over £200.000, not stepped, as it is now increase the % figure for properties over a million pounds.

Social Services

Make it pay for people to work. Draconian cut back on emigration to make jobs available for the indigenous population. Dont pay benefits to the feckless, able bodied, unemployed. If they refuse work whatever the work is stop all support. Make it simpler far less onerous for small businesses to employ people.

Anti Social Behavior

Double the duty on Alcohol and Tobacco. Stop Supermarkets using Alcohol as loss leaders Refuse help in Hospitals to Binge Drinkers and Alcoholics.

Put them in a Concrete Tank and Hose them Down. They will soon learn that

bad and antisocial behaviour has very unpleasant consequences.

Buiid more Prisons with inmate Labour, they may learn some useful skills.

Put them in tents on the Building sites.

Withdraw from from the Common Market in all areas where it is not to our

advantage. Ditto the Human rights act. The Germans, French and the others will roll over they cant afford to lose our Markets.Plus myriad other benefits.

Dont pay farmers for not growing things. Encourage them to bring disused land into use. In the 2nd WW we produced about 80% of our food. This would

create employment and cut down on imports.

I know I have strayed but all these measures would help the economy.

VAT on everything is a commonsense uncomplicated approach already in existence in New Zealand--called GST and recently raised to 15%. Absolutely no problem---target assistance at those who need it. By the way, same approach to pensions---absolutely everyone gets 66% of the median national wage, which can be livec on, at 65. Anything else you want to have in retirement---save it yourself. Eminently equitable, universally accepted, socially responsible.

The Colonel - would it not be simpler to shoot all the unemployed?

Time to leave is fast approaching.

A flat rate of 10% tax on ALL income with absolutely no deductions would be fair. The likes of Lewis Hamilton and Jenson button would gladly pay this instead of "living" in Monacco and paying nothing at all. Of course, the "tax avoidance" industry would hate it but the gross take for the government should actually increase as most people would be happy to pay this tax. Higher, unfair , taxes cause people to leave the Uk or fiddle their taxes so the "take" goes down. With this lower tax, industry could recover make more profit and eventually pay even more tax to the government.

.

Let us reinvent the wheel as well as old fashioned rates.

What will they think of next? A poll tax maybe!

I suppose some extremists will be advocating 10p extra on the super rich, next.

The Welsh had a revaluation of property for Council Tax purposes some years ago, and having seen the result the English quite rightly shied away. McDonji1 has the solution, a property tax should be based on what you paid for your house. Personally I think a local income tax makes more sense as it catches everyone who lives in an area and therefore uses its facilities.

A flat rate VAT also makes little sense. If you had different rates for different things you could ensure that the rich paid more because luxuries could be taxed higher than essentials, so 1% on fresh food 5% on processed food and 25% on a Rolex. We already have more than 1 rate because VAT on heating oil and insurance is lower than 20% I think so it would just be an extension of that principal.

I totally agree with the colonel, although it was said, I think, tongue in cheek.

Even if there were jobs for all there would still be people who wouldn't work and I think we probably all know of at least one.

As for council tax-agree it should be a poll tax with students and low income exempt. I don't think all pensioners should be exempt as not all pensioners are on the poverty line. Why should my wife and I pay more council tax than a family with 4 working adults. We only use half the services that they do.

I would only give child benefit for the first two children and after that none to be given.

Disagree with property tax. I chose to buy a house and improve it over the years and it has grown in value even in today's market. To do this my family and I did without holidays, my children didn't experience air travel until they were old enough to pay for it. We kept our car for over 11 years, only changing it when parts were difficult to obtain. We didn't smoke, drink or gamble. We bought clothes from charity shops and bought own brand foods. We also grew our own fruit and vegetables and walked whenever we could. Why then, should I be taxed on this as my family and I sacrificed what other people took for granted.

In a "free" country

You cannot tax the "rich" unless they consider it fair. In your example they would buy their Rolex watch abroad and our government would get nothing from this purchase.

This report makes the IFS look daft.

The tax most in need of revision is Council Tax but the IFS suggestion for this is ridiculous. It would be much more sensible to abolish Council Tax. Instead the money should be raised using the existing PAYE system with higher income tax rates. There would be less bureaucracy, the cost of collection would be less and it would be fairer.

The Colonel

That is why none of it will happen

Many like the sound of Vince's 'Mansion Tax'

It hits what is in fact a windfall and it only really impacts the rich in London & SE

Definitely there should be VAT on every thing, except bread, milk, cheese, vegetables and fruit.....what is the Govt. thinking, this should have been in place long ago......

Oui, mon colonel, except stamp duty, fat chunks of VAT already paid of solicitors fees, surveyors fees and agents fees and then there are the charges on repairs etc, and I would add, eliminate IHT,

Prejudiced? You bet.

And oh, BTW, eliminate the stamp duty on buying shares, but impose charges on MPs pay and pension payments, payable out of the earnings, not recoupable.

And also £1 per word for Vince's diatribe (plus VAT at full rate, maybe a special rate for him, say 50%, of course)

It would be an interesting expose to take ALL the taxes we pay no matter how well they have hidden them and amalgamate them into one income tax. No corner should be left un swept in the search for them everything, all the money we pay towards green energy in our fuel bills, car tax, even money we pay to park by the side of the road, the lot I think we would be finding them for years! I wonder what the real rate of tax would be.

David Harvey

-Overal tax rate for most average working people -over 50% (VAT 20%, petrol 100%+, Alcohol tax, NI 12% and basic rate income tax 20%-if you earn more than 40K the income tax 40%) thats why they dont do it as there would be a revolution.

Amalgamating income tax and national insurance would mean a standard rate of 31% which is of course is what people already pay on earned income but not on pensions or income from savings.The result would be to further discourage saving and contributing to pensions.As retired people tend to vote I cannot see politicians introducing this new tax.

Wouldn't it be better if the greedy and rich minority stopped stealing from the majority?

I will be dead if VAT is charged on everything!!! Employers are taking so much advantage on the job situation, no pay rise, no bonus, and ill treatment. The current inflation rate is over 4.5%. If VAT rises, my expenses will go up but my income will stay the same. As a result, my living standards will go down. I cannot understand what government is doing. To show their success, to reduce the debt so quickly, they want to kill the citizens. They should remember that without citizens, they have no value. They will be useless.

VAT on everything is a complete joke.

The problem Firoz is that some people spent and lost other peoples' money which caused the financial crisis, and then the Government did the same, on a huge scale. So, as a whole, the Country enjoyed "prosperity" it could not afford. Therefore it now has to tighten its belt to eliminate the current deficit and repay the accumulated deficit over many years.

So whilst you and me might not have indulged in this reckless behaviour, those who did cannot repay us, Therefore we all suffer. It may not be VAT rises which hit us, but falling Sterling and inflation will if not.

Tough and unfair, and should never have been allowed to happen. And amazingly Labour are ahead in the polls even though it all took place on their watch !

I feel for the elderly, so many of them live an austere lifestyle the like of which would turn the stomachs of those not used to seeing it. With services cut as they are and help being put out of reach to them. I wish they did those clips on TV about they way many of our elderly suffer they way they do about Africa. Our leaders just turn a deaf ear to it all and the council leaders say nothing but spin doctor the truth into something palatable.

VAT on everything how bad can things get while the wealthy get wealthier or remain unaffected.

@Frioz..."VAT on everything is a complete joke"....nail hit on the head. Well put.

Speaking of daft taxes ...did anyone read this lunacy from some professorial idiot madman resulting in a government proposal for TEQs ……

http://www.teqs.net/summary/

Seems like our overlords will listen to any rubbish ideas or try anything to raise money no matter how daft or totally impossible to manage.

I would like to see VAT on everything at 5% but with no facility to claim it back

Our company spends a lot of time claiming back VAT, overseen by an army of civil servants.

By the time everyone involved in the manufacture of, say, a car has charged and claimed back the VAT the government only get to keep the final person's VAT. There could have been hundreds of transactions involved at great cost to government and more importantly private companies.

A 5% (non claim back) system of VAT would ultimately net the government more money and be easier to administer.

I do not think that the consumer would notice a rise in prices on most items because 5% is a quarter of the current rate. Some items could even become significantly cheaper.

Yes some parents may say it is disgusting to charge it on children's books but you can't make an omelette with out breaking some eggs. The bigger picture is full of benefits. It would then be a simple tax which is easy to collect with no ambiguity or library of exclusions as we currently have.

You know golfalot that is really a good point about the army of civil servants. Taxes taken in the stealthy way they are cost as much to collect as they are worth at times. I wonder what the cost of collecting what must be hundreds of crafty taxes. It must in some cases, just pay their wages.

Thank you David,

That is the main weakness in what I am proposing. What do you do with the tens of thousands of civil servants that this would remove the need for?

I expect government look at the increase in benefits that would result and decide it is better just to have a VAT merry-go-round in place to keep these people 'busy'.

However when you factor in the amazing pension that they would then get perhaps it would be better to pay them the benefits instead and have a streamlined and understandable value added tax system.

By the way, why is it called 'Value Added'. That is truly perverse. The Government have not added any value to the item in question. GST is a much better term.

Thank you David,

That is the main weakness in what I am proposing. What do you do with the tens of thousands of civil servants that this would remove the need for?

I expect government look at the increase in benefits that would result and decide it is better just to have a VAT merry-go-round in place to keep these people 'busy'.

However when you factor in the amazing pension that they would then get perhaps it would be better to pay them the benefits instead and have a streamlined and understandable value added tax system.

By the way, why is it called 'Value Added'. That is truly perverse. The Government have not added any value to the item in question. GST is a much better term.

Referring to this civil servant thing. One of the things that I find aggravating about the cuts is that much of the time the people they are getting rid of from the civil service are not those who are getting the huge salaries and obscene pensions but the workers who are carrying them and their silly spin doctored ideas. I suspect that in this the unions may be right. That is that 90% of the cost of services goes to 10-20% of the staff. Another comedy is the spin put on older people being "needed" in order to justify their pension reforms while the layoffs they are making effect mainly the over 50's who may never work again.

There is an argument for putting VAT on junk food , which we all know is consumed in vast unhealthy quantities . This should help in the fight against obesity and raise considerable revenue . However the classification of such might run into difficulties .

Otherwise it is actually grossly unfair to target essential purchases and hit the less well off in society even more .

David Harvey you are so right !

However, also, if the haemorrhaging of money wasted in overpayment for contracts, such as in NHS and MOD could be controlled, we should have less need for the draconian initiatives which the government deems are needed .

As an example, just recently there was an article in the Times about the farce which is Motorbility . A massive car fleet for the disabled, where top of the range cars are being purchased, cars are being used for non disabled relatives, and the chief executive is paid a massive salary and huge bonus for running something which is totally out of control. Cars for the disabled is a great idea, but the abuses urgently need sorting.

Blame VAT on the French who thought it up, and as I said before widely ignore it. In theory it is self policing and simple. Yes the principle is simple but the number of accounting operations in the chain of production en route to the end consumer produces a burden on business and the public purse- and an opportunity for corporate theft.

A far simpler system would be a simple Sales Tax at Point of Sale, i.e. the last point when the consumer makes the purchase- and the proceeds should be compulsorily ring fenced so that business could not use it and then go broke.

We used to have a Sales Tax in UK called Purchase Tax. By & Large it worked pretty well, and there were far less traders registered with C&E as Purchase Tax traders.

I've read a number of posts regarding vat on junk food. Well, I thought that was already the case and that all prepared hot food had vat added. In a local pie shop where I live they will ask you "hot or cold?" The hot one has vat added to the price of a cold one. Mind you, the ready made junk food sold in supermarkets probably doesn't have vat added.

If you reform the tax system it would be simpler to collect and administer, and so most of the current employees of HMRC would be made redundant. As most of these tax offices are in cold places like Newcastle or rainy places like Manchester, these employees would be bound to move south and buy up all the previously-buy-to-let properties on the South Coast. This would drive up the property prices still further and, and, . . . . .

I'm only joking . . . .

A government that had the courage to reform the tax system would certainly get my vote. But I'm not holding my breath.

Don't forget you can always impose VAT on everything and then zero-rate some items, like books and newspapers at present.. At one time this produced the ridiculous result that a bookseller posting a book to you had to charge VAT on the postage element, even though the postage itself did not carry VAT . . . . Fortunately HM Customs & Excise (as it was then) saw sense and gave booksellers a concession.

Anonymous 2: Abolishing council tax and sticking it on income tax will mean that people that don't own a home will pay tax for something they don't have.

Maybe a PAYG system for public services would be better. You'd only pay for what you use then.

Lee - not sure what you mean. Council tax is not for the house, it is for the services people use. Education, police, social services, roads, leisure facilities, transport , our rubbish and so on. So the whole basis of council tax is flawed, and that is why poll tax was attempted. But the minority of people who never paid anything for their local services made such a noise that it was scrapped.

PAYG is good in theory, but then there is the huge cost of administering it and collecting debts. And how far down the line do you go in charging people ? £10 for reporting a crime, £1000 per child school bills £5 to drive or walk through your town centre ?? Far simpler to increase income tax with a base increase plus a small local surcharge depending on the spending policy of the loacl council

Another point about not raising VAT, abolishing council tax and putting it all on PAYE is that this would reduce inflation and help the poorest families and those unable to find work but unable to claim benefits (such as those 50 plus who are considered too old by many employers, those pensioners living on savings yielding a negative return and so on,) but who still need to kepp a roof over their heads

I suppose a local "sales tax" would be an option. There would be an incentive to the loval government to keep this tax as low as possible otherwise folk would go to the next borough to buy.

Thanks Jon for correcting my lack of council tax knowledge.

Perhaps council tax should be divided among the occupants of the property, not just targeted at the property owner. Every occupant would receive a bill.

Doing thing through PAYE may be okay, but what about the business owners who pay their income tax through self assessment?

I'm not sure if the unemployed pay tax or council tax. If they don't they should. Why should those people get a free ride and still get a state pension at the end?

I think that VAT should be reduced to a maximum of 10%. Surely the less tax people have to pay for goods and services, the more goods and services they might use, which in turn would lead to a greater need for higher production and jobs. So, perhaps reducing VAT would encourage more purchasing. Pricing people out of the market is not the way to go about things. More people may turn to crime to fund the taxes. Higher taxes just make living a luxury. ONE rich person may be able to buy something for £50, but 1,000s might buy it for less. Yes less VAT, but more volume sales means that more VAT is recovered.

* How about ejecting migrants that aren't workers?

* How about reducing the VAT on BRITISH made goods to 5% and increasing VAT on foreign imports? That may stimulate British production.

Instead of making a silent noise on here, maybe a petition to the government would be more direct: http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/

I find this discussion about council tax interesting. It does seem that it's a very unfair tax. Thatcher tried to change it but chose a route that was doomed from day one. Abolishing it altogether would be the only way of getting rid of it in my view. It is a huge and unfair burden on the poor and low paid especially if they have managed to buy a nice house during better times.

I also think that such reforms like putting onto income tax could also include the abolition of some of the local yokel committees and self serving quangos that crop up as a result of buffoons having power.

I have to say I am not in favour of VAT on everything but this council tax abolition seems to make sense and if done quickly could help the poorest cope with life in the Dickensian Britain our leaders have planned for us and the third world life style many elderly are forced to endure.

Whenever people take the time to understand Council Tax and consider it for a while, most come to the conclusion that it should be abolished. The unfair nature of the tax, the bureaucracy it creates and the cost of collection should be more widely understood. Collection through income tax using the existing PAYE system would address all of these problems.

If the politicians are reluctant to abolish this iniquitous tax then we must force them to do so.

About the only thing the government cant tax is the air we breath. Or could they ?

I can't imagine how anyone can continue to justify it except those with an interest of course. I have a friend who just retired and has been trying to simplify her life but it is impossible the way we are taxed. My council tax is 3 times what my mortgage used to be. Of course with all the cuts we have taken the council tax should be a fraction of what it is now. The amount of money being taken from people that cant afford it is obscene. Although we do have the privilege of watching lots of it get wasted. This VAT on everything is another way that the poor will not be able to help themselves by cutting back. I think that our leader believes a poor person is one that went to Harrow.

There are so many comments about the wrongs of council tax that we must be able to start a movement to have it changed. Things will only get worse with the cuts in funding so council tax is bound to go up. How can we start a rebellion against council tax?

Vat on everything! That would be perfect, no complicated rules, no stupid 35,000 page vat document, even the 'VAT Man' does not understand VAT rules!

I think 15% would be the VAT if everything was vatable, and don't everyone think all your prices will go up, because the Big Boys will have to soak in the VAT like the £1 and 99p deals will still be there, all the restaurants soaked up the VAT rise when it went from 17.50% to 20% no restaurant issued a new menu!

Let the big supermarkets pay the tax they should!