Spending Review: why are pensioners keeping their perks?

Why should you not pay for my bus pass?....I paid for your education!.......AND I paid the "family allowance" that kept you!!

Pensioners have already been paying dearly. The many who have saved up for their retirement are now subsidizing the over-borrowed and those with mortgages, whilst also suffering the most from the inflation caused by QE.

Furthermore very many of them are retiring on smaller funds as a result of Browns £70bn tax on pension funds, which has gone into the pockets of the many new public employees.

this stupid govermrnt missed lots of things to hit without hurting people who have retired. what about the sixty year olds who are still working earning over 30000 wh still get wfa or the people who get mobility cars who dont even look like the have anything wrong with them or who owned a car before they got the mobility cars. or the companys that will employ cheap labour before the english .and every one knows people who only walk with a walking stick out side.women who wont work who can

I too call to question the winter fuel allowance for those who have a pension greater than my income.

On the other hand they are (many of them) the only ones who have paid into the National Insurance system and tax system from the start. In getting the NI launched and the NHS, it was promised care from the cradle to the grave.

Now however, should my mother or father require home care, they will have to pay for it probably having to sell their home which they worked for, paid off while paying taxes to support everyone else.

This does not apply of course to those who have not worked for 30 years and have done little but been supported by the state and will receive the same home care as those who have worked and saved hard.

We do not ask the politically incorrect questions of why the British taxpayer and the old in particular, are paying for education, housing and health for huge numbers of people who have never contributed to the system and in many cases are unlikely to do so for a generation.

As for the young, methinks it was not today's pensioners who were running up annual salaries-worth of debt on too easily accessible credit cards, or lying about their ability to buy a house, or taking on numerous hire purchase agreements so they could have brand new electronic systems and furniture or cars......

Both my husband and myself are of an age where we could register for winter fuel benefit. We have not and while we do not need it we will not. Not exactly saving the world but it is something. However, for those already registered the treasury is credited with saying that it would be too complicated to work out a way of allowing people not to take it or to give it back. If there is up to a billion being paid out to people who really do not need it or might be prepared to give it up for a few years to assist in the recovery does this not strike you as an extremely short sighted and lazy answer. May if they incentivised the treasury in an appropriate manner we might get some better answers.

In the meantime if you get a winter fuel allowance and do not need it it may be you could talk to your local schools and see if they could use it e.g buy a musical instrument for music lessons, donate it to the local youth club which is going to struggle going forward, help the local homeless hostel with their heating bill. Pay it into a fund for your grandchilden to fund their university.

Do something local and creative with it and preferably pass it down a generation or two.

Chris Marshall talks of 'the elderly' as if they come from another planet. He will join them eventually, as will everyone else in this country. These benefits are truly universal.

Jon has hit the nail on the head. My s***y pension will see me far worse off than a certain relative who has sponged off the state for years and due to his circumstances will have benefits that outweigh what I can claim. I've paid more than my share in so I believe the meagre amount that I will get out is much deserved. As for the free bus pass, I don't have one as I am capable of moving myself around freely without relying on services that may or may not run. Furthermore, living in Wales and spending a lot of free time in England means the free bus pass is a complete waste of time anyway.

Elderly shouldn't be favoured??

I'm 85 - four years in the army. I've been paying since I was 22 - over 60 years. Young commentators just show astonishing ignorance. We used to pay 7s(35p) in the pound basic income tax. After the war for years there was Purchase Tax,sometimes at 33 1/3% for so-called luxuries. We paid for the Malaya campaign and the Korean war - national expenditure that was met by squeezing domestic taxpayers.

Tables that show that inflation for pensioners is nearly 2% higher than for average citizens..

We have the lowest state pension in the developed world. Brown said he would like it to gradually fade away so that people could make their own arrangements.The elderly who did save have seen the interest on their savings collapse to virtually nil, while those who were profligate are rewarded and obviously Mr Macrae's chief concern.

The Labour government promised to restore the link with earnings but never did. I don't recall the Indie or The Guardian complaining about this.

The Audit Commission recently advertised for a London based researcher. It Included these words:”

This post attracts £5,442 London Weighting and a London travel card in addition to the advertised salary range.”

That is the equivalent of £104 a week plus a travel card.

Those in the fire service get £4840 extra - £93 a week extra

The pensioner in London receives £97 basic pension and no more

Without the bus pass they would pay high London transport costs with no advantage of a season ticket, though they make many more visits to hospitals and clinics.

Pensioners without cars to get to supermarkets must pay the higher prices of local shops, and don't get the price advantage of buying in bulk.They feel the cold more severely and in winter are at home with the heat on all day.

Would Mr Macrae prefer to see them dying of hyperthermia.

The elderly have been treated shamefully in this country for years. Mr Macrae would prefer this to continue.

We are now in a culture where welfare benefits are perceived as being a right, whether or not there is a need. We must get back to a position where people who can afford to look after themselves do so and benefits are reserved for those who cannot.

Pensioners paying higher rate tax do not need free bus passes, TV licences, winter fuel allowances and so on. It is exactly the same argument that the government deployed in order to justify the removal of child benefit to higher rate tax payers. And it's a sensible argument - whatever the economic circumstances happen to be.

Well said Bernard.

What seems to be ignored when it comes to pensioners and the elderly is that they have already spent a lifetime making contributions by taxation and NI contributions to the national "pot" and the majority of them are no longer in a financial position to do that. It therefore follows that the burden must fall on those younger people who still have the potential to work and therefore make further contributions as one day they too will need and be looking for support.

Alan Rapley, Northumberland

Would it be helpful at this point to remind people that all pension is seen as income and is therefore taxable? For those who have prudently saved for their old age and now rerceive quite modest pension incomes they find that they are still paying income tax.

It's not so much giving as taking away.

Incidentally, all benefit is non taxable and so is received gross.

Given the current scenerio, why would anyone want to save for old age, when you can spend the lot and rely on non taxable benefits to maintain your standard of living?

Incidentally, I worked, after two years National Service, without any gaps from the age of 22 to 70, contributing to the system all that time. Now I am told I should receive no benefit - is the next stage that I should receive no national pension, which as someone else has pointed out is one of the lowest in the developed world?

Well said Bernard, my husband & left school & started paying our dues at the age of 15, we went through the bad times after the war, then through the Thatcher era where we were made redundant 3 times, ok we were lucky & got work again, I am now retired but hubby still works just to survive. Unfortunately never in a position to save as we worked in service.So why shouldnt we have a free bus pass & winter fuel allowance.Our wages were very poor not like the young of today, in fact the kids tell us they wouldnt get out of bed for what we were paid.

Clearly, everyone in every age and income group will take a differing perspective on this issue, but let me add one more that will be true of many elderly people in this country. My wife was a practising midwife from 18 until retirement at 60 - that's 42 years in the NHS ending her career as a senior sister. Sadly, she never had children so she never took a day of maternity leave, nor did she get any child allowance or family credits or nursery credits, she never made any demands on schools budgets or child clinics or free child dentistry, or similar welfare support mechanisms, and when the time comes that we can't maintain our wholly owned home, the council will not help as we will be judged well-off enough to pay for those services. And when and if we are taken into care, we will have to sell our home to pay for it as there are no children to help us out. We have paid taxes throughout our careers and have contributed in full to the police, fire-brigade, schools, NHS, Universities, Foreign Aid, the Army, Navy and Airforce and consider that we have paid in far more than we can ever take out. Oh, and my wife's state retirement pension after all that? The princely sum of £458 a month on which she pays Income Tax!!!!! And the commentator above says we have been protected in yesterday's CSR because we get a bus pass that we don't use because we have a car, plus a few free prescriptions. Dear God, why didn't he just demand that everyone over retirement age be euthanised?

In all references to older people's benefits the phrase "not of working age" is used. Is there an implication here that Pension Credit and other benefits currently paid to over 60's will now only be paid to those not of working age i.e. 65? Also, will housing benefit for those on Pension Credit between 60 and 65 be affected by the cuts?

I grew up at the inception of the original Beverage report which was the early Welfare state. It started long before this during the War for obvious reasons. My Father emphasised on his 3 Sons never rely on Governments or Politicians and when it comes to the Welfare State, when it is your turn to benefit after a lifetime of paying for it they will run out of money. He said in 1945 it will become unsustainable, and it is your duty to look after yourself, and if there is nothing going you will still be alright. How right he was in his predictions. The real difficulty is how do you get people to think like this, when they are feather bedded. The Unite spokes woman on Radio 4 thinks the Govt should Tax the best paid to keep the rest in Luxury. She never mentioned the words self help in regard to any shortcoming from housing ,Child care, work, health, and a hundred and one services which should all be sustained out of TAX. It was so ridiculous as any fool could calculate that the economy would need to be ten times the size as it is now to pay for it. Where did we get these idiots from ,Britain is on the verge of Bankruptcy but it doesnt matter as long as someone else is paying or borrowing even more money.

hamish wotshisname you talk complete nonsense and are in total ignorance of what pensioners get in this country.the worst state pensions in the whole of europe,thanks to thatcher or was it major they were both as bad,a cap on what you can earn before paying further tax on what you have already been paying all your life. get real hamish whatever your name is i hope you are old very soon but my guess is youre rich enough and fat enough to not need any state penion or cheap freebe like a bus pass anyway. idiot!

All comments from union leaders (who retire at 55 on index-linked pension) or spokespersons should be accompanied by a statement of their income.

I assume that Alan Johnson receives a pension from the Post Office as well as his MP salary.

Bob Crow (retires at 55 on a good pension) should say how much his members are paid for what hours. Train drivers get £700 for a 35-hour week. This applies to journalists and broadcasters.

The Welfare state was designed to take from the hard working and prudent

(Really prudent not like that half wit Brown),and give to the lazy and thoughtless,it's always been the same and as long as the lazy and thoughtless get the same vote as the hard working and prudent it always will be.

This is the failure of Democracy in action.

I wonder if free bus passes are mainly a subsidy to the bus companies. Most of the buses where I live would run empty during the day if it were not for the pensioners. I presume the Government would have to pay towards the off -peak services anyway, to ensure services throughout the day when it would be uneconomical for the bus operators.

Oh dear, what a self centred society we have become! Everyone arguing that they don't deserve to be on the receiving end of any cuts for a myriad of reasons . But the country is is in a hole, a massive big hole, and while individually we might argue that it was none of our doing (although at least some of the earlier correspondents must have voted for Mr Blair and Mr Brown), we are where we are and severe action is needed. And for those who begrudge paying for the education and support of other people's children, who do you think will provide you with the services that you need as you get older and more dependent on the rest of society? What if those children who then become adults turn round and say 'tough, you will have to look after yourself as we had to'? If we don't support families fewer and fewer people will have children and there won't be enough people who are willing to look after grouchy old people even if they are willing to pay them using all the money that they have accumulated for not having contributed to their upbringing.

Also, although I am not an economist or mathematician, I am not certain that the 'I've paid in more than I am getting out' argument would stand up to detailed scrutiny unless you were relatively highly paid for most of your working life.

Life has always been full of swings and roundabout for most people, why should we (yes, I'm retired as well) expect it to be different for us .

Geoff

Mr Brown was not a half wit!

"You come to praise Ceaser, not to bury him?", or do I misquote in my increasing dementia as I go into my 70s and increasingly miss the point?

Gordon, you are endlessly in my prayers.

"Why are pensioners keeping their perks?"

Because it keeps them perky!

And next year everyone in Scotland will be perky with free prescription charges not only pinky perky pensioners!

Winter fuel allowance? Keeps them perky pensioners alive!

Bus Passes? Helps them get to Asda so they can eat and stay super perky!

Free TV license? Well they don't show Pinky and Perky anymore but you can always watch PM QT with Cam and Osbo show!

I suggest that Citywire cut back on dud journalists starting with Chris Marshall and hire in any pensioner who has posted here in order to provide a balanced and insightful opinion on things economic.

Cmon the Perky Pensioners!!

David,I think you misquoted again---Gordon was endlessly in your pockets

I think the level of comment says it all - we pensioners are a lively, determined bunch, and astute politicians are well aware of the consequences of getting on the wrong side of us. So we do seem to have got away with less of the pain. I suppose I should feel a bit guilty about this - but my message to the younger generation is - get involved and make your vote count.

I'm old No comment.

Oh dear, NOT Geoff Evans again - sniping from his hidey-hole in, where is Geoff - Cyprus? Most of the commentators in this thread didn't jump ship (whatever their opinions politically) and are living here while contributing to the UK.

By the way? What have I done to allow me an opinion? As you once asked me before to list achievements - as if "achievements" made an opinion somehow more valid. Search diligently Geoff and you will find my brief C.V. somewhere inside Citywire. Hate to disappoint you but I'm NOT a benefit scrounger, asylum seeker or lottery winner.

Meanwhile, enjoy your undoubted status amongst "lesser mortals" where you now are. The remainder of us are still rowing the UK boat. Now watch out for what Mr Osborne does instead of that nasty orge Mr Brown.

Don't forget that we paid for your Grandparents retirement. Now it's your turn to pay for ours and you could be a lot more generouse towards us than you are. The elderly get a pretty poor deal from this country. One of the poorest in Europe. Time you paid us more.

It is nice to see a politician keep his promises.

Cameron promised he would not touch the items (despite Labours scare mongering) and that is what he has done.

Well done call me Dave!!!!

We pensioners are sharing the pain. Many of us saved all throughout our working lives for retirement. Now the financial mess we are in has resulted in interest rates close to zero resulting in inadequate income and QE is increasing inflation to squeeze us even more.

Add together the benefits that pensioners will retain and compare that figure with the sums handed out weekly to the millions of work shy people that the rest of us are supporting . If you have not read Oliver Twist recently it might help to refresh memories. The pendulum has swung much too far and good on you George for tackling this thorny problem.

The younger generations will learn to adapt and will succeed, as we oldies had to, and did; it is about time that these childish commentators shut up and found something useful to do, instead of churning out these fatuous opinions, which can only be intended to wind-up our readers.

Just by way of illustration, I'm 80 plus a retired chartered engineer (mech), and lived thro' WW2 as a child, its aftermath of rationing and general deprivation, national service; and now all the bullshit of political correctness and other sops to the feckless and discommoded of our society today.

Most other points are well covered in the foregoing commentary; like others of my elderly age group my wife and I have done our best to set our offspring on the right road even to the extent of providing accomodation at home free of charge for one - with a job - up to the age of approaching 40 years.

Our children have become successful and are now a darn sight richer than ever I was, as I'm sure others have found to be the case. It is pointless to conjecture what the future will hold for the young today, they will succeed whatever, provided the up and coming nuclear powers don't blow up everyone. Things have a way of becoming adjusted; those that are young now will change the way things are done in the future; they certainly do need changing from the mess our society has created to date.

As far as government handouts are concerned, the elderly are only getting returned to them the monies that a government stole from them in the first place. Personally, I would prefer to be taxed less and not have to suffer the indignities of these 'gifts' from the state, which simply arise out of the government practice of taking in taxes and redistributing it as wealth, as of a right to everyone.

Clearly, the truly needy must be helped, but the way the matter is conducted by governments now is too open to abuse; and oh boy! do some know how to abuse the system.

What utter cobblers it is to say the elderly are winners in the cutbacks and to ask why should the young pay?

What a damned cheek considering how much the elderly will have contributed in tax and national insurance over their lives to date.

More to the point...

Why do we pay to look after prisoners who have committed vile crimes, junkies and benefit spongers?

I don't want to pay tax to fund these groups of people - they're a waste of time and have no doubt contributed as good as diddly squat to the greater good over the course of their worthless, pitiful, pointless existences. Their only 'contribution' will probably be procreating to produce more individuals that will be just as worthless and as much of a drain on society in the future.

Why are we continuing to pay billions in foreign aid to countries a) who won't thank us or appreciate it and b) have enough money in many cases to look after their own affairs?

Rubbish journalism like this really sickens me.

Pensioners getting away with it!! My foot, All my surplus resources are now being poured into my Grand Children. I am helping my son get his son through Bath The Grand daughter too needs God knows what from La Crosse rackets to uniforms. In spite of my entreaties they seem to spend money like water. I close all the Bars in Universities to-day if I had my way. They all have to learn to drive by 18; it is frankly endless. The present generation could not survive without us ,never mind the so called welfare state. This does not include the baby sitting, and Can you lend me your car. and so and so wants a few grand to go into business. You wait to you all get there then you will find out.

Love the ignorance of George Hill,I PAY TAX IN THE UK!

Born 1 of 5 in an east end 1 bed flat--now Multi millionaire.Effort and brains! More than you have George!

Sorry,forget to tell George how to spell OGRE,He's not very bright or careful!

"Chris Marshall talks of 'the elderly' as if they come from another planet"

He wont if I catch hold of him.

I am not of pensionable age yet, but the whinging of those who are younger have contributed very little to the country and negated any tax inputsthey may have made by voting in Brown and his acolytes over the past 12 years

The young aren't paying for my retirement . I paid into a private pension scheme until I was 65 this year. The reward was 6% annuity. The final amount of the pension pot was at the mercy of the clown running the fund even when he made a total balls of it he received his or her bonus and they keep the proceeds when I die. Just like the shred can't go wrong.

The sate pension is crap due to successive leaders who are removed from reality and still are under the latest measures. The reason honest people that have worked in the private sector all their life need so called handouts when they reach retirement, is because of the crooks and parasites that have been in charge. I'll bet there won't be any M.Ps wanting handouts. Aren't the young subsidising this lot ?

And you forgot one of the "perks" for the over 60's.

The first official communication I received a few days after my birthday was a letter informing me I could now partake in biennial bowel cancer screening. And, true to their word, the NHS duly sent me a pot to pooh in!! Made the big 60 all worthwhile really!!

Still, I've really ripped the system since with 2 prescriptions and an eye test!! Makes up for 6-8K the missus will "lose" now her pension age has moved up from 64 to nearly 66.

Perhaps the guy who wrote this has it:

Every generation blames the one before, All of their frustrations come knocking on your door.

In this country today, the less you contribute, the more you get out of the system and the more you contribute the less you get. Any pensioner today who has contributed for 50 or 60 years will get less from the state than the single mother, welfare sponger or immigrant with loads of kids who can still claim up the equivalent of a gross salary of £35k a year before tax. Takes a pensioner about 7 years to get the same amount from the state pension. I for one will not be contributing to a private pension but intend to claim for everything I can get when i retire and will never never declare any savings I have. The retired Nurse with the private pension of £468 a month - sorry to say but as well as getting it taxed at source your local council will take more and more from you every year in council tax as you wont get any discount. Happened to my own grandparents - they took it all, well 80% of it anyway by the time my gran passed.

The fundamental problem is the way state pensions are funded.

Although one makes pension contributions, the amount you pay is not used for your pension when you retire. The amount you pay is earmarked to pay for existing pensioners.

That is why they talk about the ticking pension time bomb.

As birth rates fall, and longevity increases, the proportion of the population who are pensioners rises.

If your contributions were ring-fenced for use by yourself when you retired, there would be less mess. Or a different sort of mess.

Geoff - I'll match my command of English against yours any day. Typos and spelling mistakes are not the same. Luckily for you you DO live abroad.

OK Geoff. So you live here. NOT what you said some time back

Jon G - I think that the retired denior nurse was complaining that she was taxed on her STATE pension of £468 pm. For this she must be receiving other income, such as her gold plated NHS one after 42 years' service. Bearing in mind it costs £30,000 to get £1,000 pa index linked pension, then I would gladly swap my considerable personal pension fund for her pension !!!

Astute vigilance is needed when dealing with the State . I remember 1984 (Very Orwellian) John Major introduced a scheme to encourage people to come out of SERPS,as a Pension Trustee I felt SERPS were worth investigating in relation to our own opt out position. I set my professionals to do a study of the benefits and the cost of buying those benefits plus a comparison quote from the private sector. It turned out that the Serp benefits were one third of the cost the same benefits would have cost from the private sector. The Bargain of the century . We bought in when eveyone was being conned to come out. Most of us qualified for the Top rates of SERPS at the time of retirement index linked in addition to our private annuities , in my case just short of 11%. Not luck, Not greed, but plain old Common sense and eternal vigilance.. The trouble is that many Trustees do not constantly review the position and the underlying performance of the investment opportunities. We became better at it than the proffesionals.. I urge all engaged in this duty to give as much time as possible ,as it pays dividends over the years.

The only winners have been the bankers. Come on. Does the bail out and the continuing abuse of state aid to banks compare to bus passes valid after 9.30 effectively filling up empty seats and saving car miles.

Most of you have missed the REAL point........retired people VOTE.........that's why the "perks" ain't been touched!

Why George what are you going to do?

What is the point?

A BBC report said yesterday that youngsters interviewed were lamentably ignorant. Some thought that Nelson's column was in memory of Nelson Mandela.

We elderly lived in another country.

Sorry Geoff. I just meant if you live here you will find the next few years difficult. Although not as difficult as many of your fellow citizens. I'm sure you weren't inferring a threat before!

My C.V. Mining village, Degree educated, professionally qualified, sales and marketing for 30 years, couple of stints as M.D. Sold my company, retired ten years back. Me a multi-millionaire? I doubt it - unless you factor in investments and property. First cousin sits in the Upper House. Contacts everywhere.

I'm starting to sound like one of Harry Enfield's characters from the eighties. Not Loadsamoney but that Brummie who constanty brags about having "more money than yow!"

But you started it...

lol

I know loads of pensioners(Widowers/Divorcees) who have started a new family all over again It is a modern phenomenom, The BBC is full of them, old men starting again. I wish I knew the secret is it Viagra or the diet or all those welfare cheques? Once they introduced perks for more children in France in the late 1940s after the War. The country was suddenly festooned with new motor cycles. If you produced you got a state cheque which bought you a Velocette or a BSA or even a Triumph 500 for twins.

What nobody has mentioned yet, is that the state pension is like a ponzi scheme, whereby exisitng beneficiaries are paid from the dues of non pensioners. In a commercial world, the organisers/administrators would be prosecuted! Remember Madoff?

Armand, forgive me, but your knowledge of the welfare state as introduced by Beveridge is clearly lacking. It was utterly unfunded from the outset, and that included all state spending, not just pensions. Everything from Defence, Civil Service pay, Police, Fire Brigades etc., ad finitum, is and always has been funded from current revenues. It wasn't just the outgoing Chief Secretary to the Treasury - who quite correctly left a note saying that there was no money left - it is a basic fact of economics that the only money any democratic Government has is that which is raised from current taxes or the sale of Gilts (save any contingency funding, which is nothing more than an interest paying loan to the Govt. There simoply isn't and never has been a Government Bank Account. Are you even aware for instance that the Government does not insure any of its assets or responsibilities? It meets those responsibilities from current revenues. Governments used to have Gold reserves but even that was sold off by Prudence at the lowest price Gold has ever been in history, so that he could give even more away to feckless and workshy New- labour-voting benefit claimants rather than invest the money in new industries or scientific research or English language and culture and integration classes for immigrants. Get the message? Governments do not have any money.!!!!!!

For all those Pensioners not needing their Fuel allowance. Please collect it and donate to either The Royal Lifeboat Institute or the Royal British Legion rather than leave it with the Govt to waste on you no what.

Yes i am a retired nurse and live in the same "universe" of public servantage retirement and expect the usual lashing out verbally at retirees by the few youngsters who have never had it so good, and baulk at any effort on their part to accept that they have an earning ability far and beyond pensioners fixed cash flows which appears to cloud their judgement" .

The garbage produced by some of the papers never ceases to amaze me.

Not only are the state pensions received the lowest, but will continue to be the lowest, linked to CPI not RPI, whilst their inflation rate is RPI plus 2%.

So a few pensioners who use bus passes because of poverty or to help save the earth, in the above circumstances should not lose any of their well earned benefits.

Pensioners as such have been let off to continue to have their pensions in real terms reduced.

For those of you who want to place cuts in further perspective please read the Citywire section on "The axe has fallen, our damage assessment" in particular Spending Review - Welfare cuts drive Osborne's austerity package.

Those who are in residential care paid for by the state, should not receive winter fuel allowance.

all this bickering going on. not one of you has mentioned that if this country was"nt wasting the millions of our money on this unnecessary war plus the lives of all our brave troops. we would not have these problems.

Agree with Roy---Hang Blair as a traitor and The Chair for Bush.Pull out of all these wars,if we did there wouldn't be a terrorist threat.

I am at a total loss to understand why people want to bash pensioners. I worked all my life (from 4 days after leaving school), until I retired last year. Isn't it bad enough to have to make do with the meagre State Pension after my years of unstinting work, without people whingeing about a few petty helpful benefits to those who DO need them.

We seem to be quite happy to unload millions a week on unmarried mothers, spongers and layabouts who have NO intention of ever looking for work, let alone doing any. If you offered these people £500 a week to start at 11 and finish at 12 with an hour lunch break, they would complain because they had to turn up.

Please get things into perspective and look at how much you are prepared to pay for another football strip, so that professional footballers can walk away with a million pounds a month, for nothing more than kicking an inflated bladder around. Please do NOT tell me that this is 'Sport', as sport went out of the equasion as soon as big money entered.

Good God, thinking how much we happily paid the Boss of one of our largest Banking concerns to FAIL, really gets my goat.

Final word, I now know the real meaning of the phrase, 'The Sun never sets on the British Empire'. Tis because even God can't trust these b*****ds in the dark.