Morning Line: tackle benefit fraud – but what about tax cheats?

The Independent's cartoon illustrates Lorna's article nicely...http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/the-daily-cartoon-760940.html

Yeah, because gardners, house cleaners, mechanics and builders are so wealthy - let's go after them. Sort of like crabs in a pot - none of the crabs in the pot allow any other crabs to leave the pot, so they all boil to death.

How about an effort to take from those who hoard - you know the ones we are enslaved to? We toil, they hoard and revel.

the government's figures for last year show a benefit saving of around £400 per investigated case. These figures dont include costs.

Maybe we should be focussing on growth in economically productive jobs and reducing the dumbing down of the workforce with our open door laws on immigration.

Positive measures that would reap quicker and longer term benefits for the nation.

Is this lady seriously suggesting that HMRC are not trying very hard to catch tax cheats already?

And as for her figures????????????

The tax system int his countyr is fundamentally unfair and over complicated. The only people who pay their share of the tax burden are the poor souls on paye. Why should company owners be able tyo benefit from reduced rates of tax by paying themselves in dividends, why should the self employed (& so called 'contractors')be able to claim tax relief on nearly every penny they spend (food/parking/petrol) that employees could only dream of and why should anyone who is rich enough to afford a holiday home abroad and a clever accoutant be exempt from any UK tax whatsoever.

'The average middle class family probably pays out in cash at least £200 a month for people to cut the grass, clean the house, babysit or perform other services. ' What!? - £200 sounds an excessive amount to not look after your children and home, why not just encourage people to do it themselves? Granted, chilcare is an issue that I do not wish to belittle, however, a babysitter isnt full time childcare and I wouldn't begrudge them not fillining out a tax return form for it, even if they do have other income taking them over £6,475pa. I do however begrudge some silly sausage loving the pub everyday with thier dole money and laughing at me for working and paying tax. Perhaps the principle of people getting money to do nothing is what makes benefit reforms a more compelling concept?

well anon 2 go self employed then! Try your hand at your own business or are you a lily livered civil servant sucking the state dry? It is the business owners who will get us out of the crap created by the labour nanny state -all poor victims bless. Bring it on !

it suits Cameron to dump on the poor and not hold the middle - upper middle class their legal obligations -

he is definitely reintroducing class politics - would this be the Tory definition of broad church?

depressing -

no wonder the English are more depressed about the economy than any other group in Europe with the nasty plans this government is thinking up

I think that any steps that the Government can take to prevent Benefit fraud, no matter how small in the beginnning, has to be applauded. We are already being invited to call freephone numbers on TV and posters to report crime, fly-tippers and benefit cheats, so nothing new there.

It could be argued that the man taking cash in hand to clean windows is depriving no-one of anything assuming (and this is a dangerous assumption) that he is not also claiming benefits. He is paying nothing into the state and taking nothing (directly) out.

Benefit cheats on the other hand are a net drain on the taxpayer, nothing goes in but cash flows out.

If all benefit cheats became self employed on a cash-in-hand basis tomorrow, the country would be hugely better off; less cash handed out in benefits, fewer state employees needed to administer said benefits (and for that matter to administer tax and tax credits) and fewer children brought up with the preception that a life without work is somehow normal.

Big government wouldnt like it becasue it would have less money to waste and fewer voters pathetically grateful for its largesse.

Constance, what utter rubbish, Italy is apparently the most unhappy place in Europe for a start.

All this class business I see people spout is absolute dross, I came from a fairly poor and high crime rated north west town and the fact is that this does not stigmatise you as being poor, if you pay attention in school, work hard at your jobs and learn how to speak like a human being there is nothing to stop you from progressing into decent jobs on decent pay.

Why on Earth should somebody be punished for trying and then accumalating money? It is those that do nothing that drain from the middle class....my boss pays me, I am subordonate to them. I pay the tax paying the benefits, the Kappa-Slappers (Kappa sportswear wearing non-workers/drug dealers) are subordonate to me, it is a simple equation that can easily be changed through hard work. Class has nothing to do with it and is a merely a tool for people who seem themselves as the next mass murdering hypocritical communist leader to rally up a contingent of destruction bent idiots who ultimately get dumped on by the aforementioned leaders regime once established.

Ah sorry constance, apologies given where they are due, you meant that British people are more depressed about the economy, whilst I still stand by what I say on your use of the concept of class discrimination, we probably are the most depressed about the economy but I dare say we have the most irresponsible media on the subject.

well said anon 3-and Spain/Ireland ?? Constance is talking out of her hat and the quicker we tackle these lazy slobs the better. I am fed up keeping them in fags booze drugs and nappies . Time for a wake up call!

Thank you fatcat, I was expecting to be condemned for my comments but I am only saying things as I see them. I believe (at the risk of sounding facist) that the terminally unemployed (say 18 months of straight signing on) should not be allowed to vote in an election. Why should those who do not contribute, get a say in the control? How does not living in the real world, give you the right to shape it?

Returning to Lorna's piece..................

One loophole that could be closed is the non-doms' use of their credit cards and debit cards drawn on overseas acccounts which they use to make UK payments: e.g. antiques and trips to the theatre.

They dont "consider" this money remitted so they evade tax on it.

From today these non-doms should register their overseas cards and they should all be bared from making payments over £50.00.

So this Govt (and presumably the previous one) have been doing nothing to increase tax collection? So what about? -

1. The Non-Doms tax changes (that Con-Lib do not seem to be changing)

2. HMRC's actions against those hiding money in offshore bank accounts

3. HMRC's recent campain against dentists who might be underdeclaring their income

4. The restriction on pensions tax relief (that the new Govt will retain, albeit by a different method)

5. The removal of Personal Allowance for those earning over £100k (staying in place)

6. The new 50% tax rate (staying in place)

7. Taxing of banker bonuses

8. HMRC actions on VAT fraud

Perhaps I have been dreaming all these and they are not actually taking place!

Which do we find most difficult to deal with?

A) a person getting up everyday and doing a job, but underpaying income tax.

B) Somebody who gets up at 12, is faking an illness (and that is not to say every person on IB is pretending to not be able to work I am sure they are not) and is being paid and made very confortable for lounging about.

Perhaps answer B is the reason people seem more focussed on benefit cheats, however, as Kevin has pointed out there have been a lot of changes, increases and clampdowns on tax, so perhaps this is being dealt with in equal measures anyway?

All, who are caught cheating and abusing the Tax and Benefits systems should be put out to dry preferably, in high security prison! To steal in any form is immoral and must be punished. This country has gone rapidly downhill in the past 20 years or so and if action is not taken NOW, to put ba stop to it all this cheating it really will be bye bye Blighty, Hello third world! Sadly, we are practicall there already!

Why should so called Farmers who sell their land for residential House Building pay no Capital Gains Tax, if they roll-over the Capital and profit into yet another Farm? Never mind the part time Gardner and the Babysitter, they wouldnt bother to leave the TV set if they had to pay Tax on their earnings. No, Britain is now exactly the same as Italy, to survive you have to join the Black Economy. Look no further than the House of Lords and the Commons for an example as to how to survive in Tax riddled Britain

I agree entirely with Simon Taylor. I live in an area of high unemployment or should it be classed as under-employment. What ever words you choose to describe the predicament you would not arrive at a clear definition. I make my own observations and analysis, but try not to probe to deep. The facts of the matter are that the parish is supported by a grey economy.

If you make reasonable assumptions about sources of income you would arrive at the following conclusions.

Households dependant on benefits. 40%

Pensioners 15%

Casual workers (cash in hand) 15%

Full time employees 10%

Self Employed 10%

Disabled 3%

Disabled, without visable signs of 3%

Mystery Men 4%

The benefit claimants seem to be the most vociferous. (loud mouthed, and demanding) with plenty of free time to hone their skills.

The rest of us keep a low profile and let sleeping dogs lay.

Haha I like your breakdown Anon 4, most amusing

as seems to usually be the case - it comes down to character - easy to blame the kappa brigade - I blame them myself, but with much of the media gloryifying pride, individualism at the expnse of others and lowest-common denominator entertainment, those with poor/no education will of course take the easiest option when presented with it. Right or left wing 'solutions' don't work, evidence-based policy will if funded properly. Sterilisation on a huge scale for all those caught cheating or on long term handouts would certainly speed up this urgently-needed action. X-rays work - how about squadrons of chinook helicopeters with huge x-ray machines slung underneath hovering over the estates? This would be quick, painless and efficient! Go on Cameron I dare you!! ha

Many contributions, yet most of them not addressing the subject matter of the article.

After years of expenses 'fiddles' by MPs of all parties, who can blame those who are following their example?

No one has mentioned "Negative Income Tax" which has been floated as a means to encourage work.

If this was introduced so that only non working people were on direct benefit and then ALL benefits were rigorously monitored it would reduce the two-timers who work in the Black economy AND draw benefits and would provide worthwhile occupations for all those civil servants who currently administer benefits and all too frequently get it wrong because it is so complicated.

Only by making work worthwhile is any system going to discourage many tax and benefit cheats from using the over complicated current system to their personal benefit at the expense of the country as a whole.

Declare your earnings, get your tax rebate (or whatever they would call it), hold your head up and be part of a responsible society.

There is one main difference between tax evasion and benefit fraud. Tax evaders earn their money and benefit fraudsters do not. Those of us who wish to drive ourselves forward in our careers and increase our earning power seem to be forever punished by high taxes for doing so Lets face it, being honest and upfront is a mugs game in todays society - everyone is at it, even the MP's who run the country.

Jon Gallagher: I quite agree, there seems to me to be a fundamental difference in someone trying to keep the money they have legitimately earned and those who illicitly try to obtain money earned by someone else.