Did you know it is illegal for interns to work for free?

If you want to get ahead you have to make the effort. If some companies want free interns and there are people who are willing, so what?

That said, unfortunately it means middle class kids with family money behind them stand a much better chance than poor working class kids with no financial backer. So as we see in Journalism and other professions they are mostly now so totally dominated by the middle class (the upper middle class) they have virtually eliminated the working class. And as our governmental institutions are dominated by those same professions and that same class, it means we are turning into our nation into a bourgeois oligarchy.

Whether that matters or not ......

I'm so glad someone's actually brought this up. I work in the TV industry. It's always been difficult for me to understand how unfairly young starters are treated in this industry. They're either required to work for nothing, or should consider themselves lucky to get a minimum-wage runner position (around £12,000 - £14,000 annually, isn't this less than you would get working in McDonald's??), literately making tea and coffee for an indefinite period of time. How could this possibly help your future career? The only thing it does to you is to make you become another bitter and twisted media worker when you finally do survive the despair and inhumane runner's life and move on to a proper position.

In a highly civilized, developed country, how can this be allowed? People in these industries are definitely taking advantage of the number of competitive and willing young starters, but should the authorities allow it??

I have just been told that this is yet to be confirmed in our courts of law and so it is not illegal at present. If anyone could help on this I'd appreciate it - thanks.

The point the think tank ippr is making is that the National Minimum Wage Act states 'workers' have to be paid at least minimum wage.

This means many interns are entitled to be paid, as they can be legally defined as workers.

As a result many employers could be open to compensation claims from current and former interns at employment tribunals.

When I started my university studies Canada, I was already thinking ahead about my career. As I was a foreigner in Canada, on a student visa, I was not allowed to work while my classmates had the opportunity to work to gain experience. Knowing that I would be disadvantaged after graduation unless I do something about it, I started various projects to get me the necessary building blocks for my career, worked on them, made the effort to understand about the sector, made the projects applicable to consumers of the output of the projects.

I am not the smartest of all, and if I can do this, any person starting out in their can do the same. All that it takes is the ability to plan, lay out the chess moves, and simply get work done!

So if a graduate has to work for free to get the necessary experience, I don't see what's the problem with it. One may even argue that because employers have to spend time and money to train graduates who may not end up contributing to the company over a longer period of time to allow the employer to recoup the cost, the trainees should therefore pay the employer for the training!

As an employer, I have a policy of not taking on any persons, whether a fresh graduate or not, to train the person. The person should be capable of "production" with having introduced what may be the company's proprietary practices and procedures. I often say, if I am a restaurateur and I need a pasta chef, the fact that a person knows how to make instant noodles isn't going to meet my requirements.

I am rather amazed that there are so many students who upon graduation has never worked a single day, never had any experience in their chosen area of study/work. On the other hand, many of them will be able to tell you in great lengths about their summer vacations! Students having studied hard during the academic year, thus deserving a holiday is far too lame an excuse. Holiday is not a right, but a luxury. In any case, having seen UK academic workload as a university lecturer, the academic workload in UK establishments is still far too light, especially compared to institutions in other countries.

Thanks for clearing that up, Victoria.

J O'Donnell I would guess that the TV industry doesn't try to change things, it just perpetuates the same injustices that have been inflicted generation to generation? However, it would seem a good way to get rid of the wasters who see getting into "TV" as the holy grail of cool rather than a career they wish to persue - I have a brother in TV with his head up his backside unfortunately it didn't work in his case :0) !!!

I think the issue is that a personal pride and drive is lacking somewhat in todays younger workforce and, interns working for free is a way to find those who are truly passionate about the career they wish to persue.

A report from the Institute for Public Policy Research does not constitute clarification of a statute.

Clearly the firms concerned should make a modest charge for the training they are providing, to establish that the "intern" is not an employee.

And surely we should use "stagiere" - much nicer term?

'These positions require you to actually 'work' and contribute to the company, therefore by law these people should be being paid.'

Where does this fit in with the concept of volunteering.

Is this a private sector issue?

Volunteers (speaking as one myself and as a manager of volunteers) contributing to an organisation is what motivates a fair proportion of volunteers to give their time freely. Gaining experience, making contacts and building CV content are also equally valuable reasons for volunteering, but motivation is trypically a mixture of things rather than purely one.

From a volunteering perspective, I see the word 'internship' as a marketing tool to demonstrate that there is a higher level of training and support in a volunteer role, not to give any suggestion of legal status.

And reiterating what K Ivanov says, people working 'for free' are not 'free'. To give a good experience to a volunteer (be they an 'intern' or not), the host organisation has to invest in time, materials, training and more. The relationship between a volunteer and their host organisation is one of mutual benefit, the key thing is that the benefit to the volunteer cannot be financial.

My daughter has to do a placement year as part of her degree course. She has had to take an unpaid position with the biggest law practice in the country. She cannot afford it, and has had to take further loans as have I to support her. Surely they would know if this is legal or not and act accordingly?

No, it's not illegal for interns to work for free.

The National Minimum Wage Act has three classes of people:

Volunteers - who don't get paid and don't get expenses

Voluntary Workers - who don't get paid but do get expenses

Workers - who get paid

Interns fall into the 'Voluntary Worker' category and aren't classified as 'Workers', so the Minimum Wage requirement doesn't apply to them. There is nothing to stop an employer paying an intern, but if they do, then the Intern becomes a 'Worker' and then they must be paid at least the minimum wage.

This is just companies exploiting people because of the high levels of unemployment so as to cut their own costs and boost profits.

K Ivanov obviously does not lecture in medicine or engineering both of which have a high undergraduate workload, unlike many other degree subjects. It was ever thus.

For the purpose of clarity, I previously lectured in engineering (EE) and computer science.

Having studied for 4 yrs, taking as part time jobs as he could, my son was paid just under £12K for his placement for a year - he worked >40 hrs a week. the workload was enormous, he ended up doing all the work in the laboratory, while the company employing him got rid of their trained staff!

Upon completion of his degree, while trawling through the vacancies in his field of interest, he came upon one with a leading company, who were offering him lunch vouchers (£3/day) for his trainee position.

He had to take a position at the other end of the world away from home for a similar trainee position, which actually paid him a reasonable wage (£18K) for his first full time job after qualifying.

I think employers know that they can pay next to nothing because of the credit crunch!

If I was faced with a similar scenario, I would not work for no pay as this would undermine my passion for the job, & in effect means that the company does not value my input!

Internships are the modern apprenticeships. Often in days of Yore they would be obliged to pay for that privilege. I get scores of applications every year. Work experience for me is doing work, not watching someone else do work. That is ‘watching other people work experience’ and it is voluntary. If you don’t want to do it, don’t do it.

Insist on a wage and watch every intern thrown out on day one. Is that what you really want?

Godfrey Bloom

Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee European Parliament

I should point out that Len Murray's observation above is entirely incorrect. In terms of the Minimum Wage Act, to be excepted as a "voluntary worker" the employer would need to be a charity or an associated body. The definition of a "volunteer" is also not just people "who don't get paid and don't get expenses", a person can and is a worker if they do work for a company, are expected to do it and are (for example) given specific hours to do it in.

The Minimum Wage regulations apply as much to people who are called "volunteers" or "interns" by a company as anyone else - a company cannot avoid their obligations by simply giving someone that title. If you are treated like a worker or an employee then you are one.

And in response to Godfrey Bloom, I'm sure that he does get many applications for young people to work for him in this time of need (if his title is correct as he gives it). That does not mean he is free to exploit them by using them for their work, unpaid. Internships are not "modern apprenticeships", there is a specific exception for real apprenticeships under the Minimum Wage Act and they are expected to be about the training and education of someone toi do a specific job of work, not a way of avoiding your legal obligations to pay a worker the basic legal minimum.

I trust Godfrey Bloom will not be using any interns and using them as unpaid workers any time soon.

@Neil Murphy

You are completely wrong. I come from a working class family and I have been interning for free for 5 months and I have managed to support myself financially by working on a part-time job, your view is completely warped and not true. It is people like you that make class' an issue when they have no need to be.

Lucky you, however your good fortune is not shared by everyone in your position.

It isn't 'good fortune' or 'lucky' I work very hard and that is all it takes if you want to succeed.

Maybe for you, but not for everyone. Some people do not have the opportunities, the lucky breaks (like securing a part time job) or the wherewithall to survive for extended periods of time without pay.

They are the people who are excluded by the system of unpaid internships, and that is not making this a "class issue".

I don't understand your last sentence, but it is more about determination rather than luck at the end of the day. I completely agree with you, I really struggle, I am an intern and have been for sometime, I don't have anyone to bail me out.

I was referring to a previous statement, "middle class kids with family money behind them stand a much better chance than poor working class kids with no financial backer." I think interns should be 100% be paid at least minimum wage, there is no need for these petty replies.

I have not said anything "petty", I have merely outlined my point of view.

If we both believe that all interns who do real work should be paid the minimum wage then there is no debate.