Dave - It should have been secret
16:09 | 24 Nov 2009
It is suggested that the banks should have been allowed to fall "ring fencing the depositors funds" as this is a free market. In a free market, depositors funds wouldn't have been ring fenced and people would have lost their money. If the bank was to fall it was because it was unable to meet its liabilities and therefore depositors wouldn't have been protected.
The secrect loans provided cash flow for the banks during a difficult time (I think they were fully repaid after a few months) and no depositor lost a penny.
If the loans had been made public, there would have been a run on the banks (as per northern rock) and the tax payer would have been left with two more broken institutions (life northern rock) with no depositor base.
I think that many things that the Government/Bank of England/FSA have done have been utterly idiotic, however as far as I can tell, this isn't one of them.
Jumbo Whiffy - To Dave
16:20 | 24 Nov 2009
Are you saying both banks now operate without government support? From what I can see they only paid back the BoE when they nicked almost the same amount from the taxpayer. Since then they've borrowed more!
Philip Wise
16:56 | 24 Nov 2009
I think what they did at the time was probably the best (but not the only) choice.
However, nothing has been done, it seems, to prevent a repetition, apart from some soundbites about bonuses.
The important thing to do is to prevent a repetition of the events. It's quite simple - retail and business banking should be separate from investment banking (and, indeed, any other activity). If you want to operate as a retail bank, and have the marketing advantage of a £50,000 guarantee from the UK taxpayer, then you should be prevented from doing anything else.
This would mean a restriction of trade, but heyho, taxpayers cant afford to bail out riskier businesses again.
The political elite havent suggested this because the gravy train runs from Whitehall to the City and Canary Wharf in both directions. Ron Sandler seems to know best where the station is.
Amongst the political elite in the UK, we now have the same problem with face-saving that the Japanese have been trying to get over since their economy failed ten years ago. There is a need for the political elite to own up to their mistakes and get on with it. There is a need for the rest of us (including journalists ) to accept that mistakes were made. We all need to learn from the mistakes, rather than bleating on about them.
Tony, you have to ask yourself why no journalist was able to uncover a £61 billion loan from the Treasury - I suspect it was partly the result of newspapers desperately wanting advertising revenue from the institutions who borrowed the money. Let me see if I can find the Telegraph/St James's Place guide to IHT now... If journalists were asleep on the job, then you cant really have a go at others.
Ronald O'Brien - Secret £62bn loan
16:56 | 24 Nov 2009
I agree with Dave, neither the media or indeed the general public are very sensible in both managing and digesting this type of action by either Government, regulatory bodies or the BOE.
The media seem to wheel out all sorts of doom and gloom mongers to tell us we are all doomed and dont trust banks- how helpful is that in recifying these historic events.
As for the public, as Dave said, witness the lemming situation that exacerbated Northern Rock's downfall.
Anybody that thinks the same wouldn't have happened to HBOS and RBS is deluded.
Carefully managed information in these extremely difficult financial times will always be required.
Peter W Rees - My Tax Money
17:01 | 24 Nov 2009
RBOS shoud have been allowed to go to the wall and our taxes used to support depositors monies. It is wrong for tax payers money to be used to prop up any non essential business, by that I mean any businesses that are widely duplicated. there is not a shortage of banks in this world as if there were many entrepeneurs would be there to take advantage of that scenario.
Peter Rees.
James Clancy
17:12 | 24 Nov 2009
The BOE should have been the regulator in the first place. Even priory to the crises last October Mervin King and the late Eddie George voiced concerns.
Sadly no one took heed To a degree they were in the wilderness, as not only did Brown make the political decision to appoint the FSA as regulator of the Banks.It also suit his own political ambitions.
I am sure if King was in charge the HBOS and RBS crises would have been dealt with differently
The quicker banks are put under the supervision of the BOE the better for all of us.
Dermot Brannigan
17:27 | 24 Nov 2009
There really isn't a story here.
We don't have a right to know everything that is being done, when it is being done.
I agree with Dave that it was right to keep it private and I also agree with Philip, that very little has been achieved to ensure it doesn't happen again (other than the securitisation market, which propped all those US banks up, has virtually disappeared).
Let's not forget that the fuss about Northern Rock was because they asked whether an overdraft would be available if they needed it. Then suddenly Peston gets hold of it, and in an attempt at his 15 minutes, suddenly we're all doomed!
Funny how he didn't know anything about this isn't it?
Not sure people have really thought through the effects of a bank running out of money. Who would pay your wages this week? Who would provide a retail business with cash to trade tomorrow? What does a business do with the cash it made yesterday, and how do they stop it being knicked? What happens to a council's services if all their money is tied up with that bank?
Lastly, Tony is right. People cannot be trusted to make rational decisions. That's why stock markets around the world are based on sentiment and nothing more.
Will it happen again? Sure we'll have recessions again - we need them, to stop us from ourselves, but whether we'll see a banking crisis like this, really depends on the Americans
Syndicate - The Bank's secret £62bn loan
06:41 | 25 Nov 2009
It seems that the Government can do whatever it likes and have no accountability! It would have been better to let the Banks go under rather than put everyone in hock for that sort of money. At the very least, Parliament should have been asked to authorise it.
Ian Craik - Lender of Last Resort
10:12 | 25 Nov 2009
There was no alternative at that stage. Had cashpoints ceased working, which was only hours away, the financial system would have come to a grinding holt and the long term loss of confidence would have been huge. Recovery would have taken years or possibly decades.
Brian Hammond
10:26 | 25 Nov 2009
I have stated before that any failed bank should be allowed to go to the wall, just as all other businesses do when management fails !
The banks have been unregulated (and it appears that financial advice given to their customers is the same) for the last 12 years, and they knew what all the risks were.
The BOE and FSA are certainly NOT independent of this govt. as can be demonstrated by the debacle in the commons over the banning of short selling by Brown and then its' re-instatement by the FSA.
The Queen's Speech shows what an irresponsible govt we have when it comes to public spending, and it just goes to show that the economy is never safe in the hands of loony lefties !!! (repeat of the seventies).
Phil Castle - We can argue all we like BUT
16:39 | 25 Nov 2009
Fifth, who knew about this? Given the volatility in the banks' shares at that time, was there anybody trading with the benefit of privileged information?
CK - Had to wait till the end
23:12 | 25 Nov 2009
I'm with you Phil, the fluctuation in share price is what should be studied and who was making these trades.
There can't really be any doubt about it, the people who got the banks in the shit probably made plenty cash from their failure.
Simon Kershaw - Lender of last resort.
02:44 | 26 Nov 2009
I was always taught that lender of last resort would only happen if we were all fucked.
Maybe we are.
Chris Geeson - Everyones equal just some are more equal than others
14:58 | 27 Nov 2009
Only just picked this blog up but must agree with Phil striaght away, how much insider trading took place with the knowledge and in a, so called, free market artifiicial tampering, however well meant, has consequences.
The old boys network could well have been in full swing and how would we know.
I dare say that if asked the policy makers will tell us it was for our own good that we never knew at the time, but I really do wonder how many knew and how much of the collective "good" meant those in the know turned a fast buck.